For a different kind of self-defense

[Mohawk]

Gentlemen,
Yesterday, one of my younger sisters brought a cardio-thoracic surgeon whom she's been dating to Thanksgiving dinner and the two of us quickly hit it off when we found that we have many mutual interests. But during the course of our lengthy and heated conversation about hunting, deep-sea fishing, and hiking remote, mountainous regions of North America, he suddenly posed me to the following question: "What would be the most appropriate handgun to carry while hiking the coastal area of Alaska for the purposes of defending oneself against the big, Alaskan bears?" I've never been to Alaska, but this fella goes every other year with one of his close buddies and he explained to me that carrying a rifle is out of the question as it looks like one is actually hunting the bears under the pretense of protecting oneself from them! He went on to admit that in most areas of that state, carrying any kind of a firearm is illegal, but that he was willing to get caught with a large, concealed handgun rather than take the chance of being mauled or worse. Apparently, he and his Alaskan hiking buddy have had some close calls.

Among the suggestions were the .454 Casull, .475 Linebaugh, .50 AE Desert Eagle, and S&W .500 Magnum. What do you think, gents?

Dave

[1st cav sgt ret]

well.....remembering that any handgun is a poor substute for a rifle or shotgun I would say the heavest cal that you can shoot very well and accurately and repeadly under extreme stress ,and would be a very personal choice ,of those listed I would pick the 454 its accurate and its powerful,for myself I have always used a S/W mdl57 41mag with the lbt250 gr cast loaded real HOT and not felt undergunned(however I havent been to coastal Alaska,was stationed at Ft Richardson once tho)

[Bobcat]

I won't weigh in on the handgun choice yet, but Alaska is a concealed carry state and recognizes your Texas License. The only place I can think of where you could not carry might be in a State or National Park.

Bob

[NESoDak]

Concealable powerhouse? That, I have to believe is pretty tricky. Most of the real heavy hitters are about as easy to conceal properly as a small dog. I am also a fan of the .41 Mag and would consider that a bare minimum. A 4" N-Frame revolver is likely the best bet. Also a 41 and larger 4.75" barreled single action would fit the bill nicely. A Ruger Blackhawk stainless or Freedom Arms revolver perhaps.

In a perfect world a pump action shotgun full of heavy slugs is the real thing to have on hand, but I think the most logical choice is a 4" S&W N-frame 44 Magnum stoked with heavy hardcast bullets. The handguns and ammunition are readily available, the recoil is tolerable and 44 spl rounds can be used for practice and plinking. Holsters, especially those designed for concealed carry are also more prolific for these handguns than for something like a Desert Eagle.

I am not from Alaska either, I am simply thinking of how I would do it myself. I can't help but wonder if a surgeon is willing to run many practice rounds thru a 454 or 475. I do not doubt his manhood, but the guy does have a dollar or two invested in his mitts.

Sis is bringing home a surgeon? Mom musta been plum tickled. ;D

[Mohawk]

NESoDak,
Absolutely right, amigo . . . can't conceal even the smallest of the handguns designed to substitute for a buffalo rifle under normal circumstances. But the good doctor was referring to hiding the piece amidst the extensive apparell and gear that he wears and/or humps while doing his Alaskan backcountry expeditions.

As for the .44 Magnum, he submitted to me that he would not feel comfortable armed with one when faced with an 1800-lb brown bear who felt like he/she had more right to the salmon they were taking out of the rivers! This brings me to a point that Sgt. brought up, when he suggested that the gun should be something that a man in this kind of a situation should be able to fire accurately in fairly rapid succession. Dr. Rice also emphatically explained that he wanted a handgun that could put down such a bear in not more than 2 shots to its center of mass and explained that in many instances, a bear would only give a man one shot before it was on top of him!

I submitted this post because I didn't have any idea how to answer his question. I've fired the .454 Casull and the .50 AE Desert Eagle, but I don't know if either of these designs would stop an animal of that capacity with one or (at the most) two shots to its center of mass . . . even if the animal is inside 30 yards of the gun at the time of impact.

Regards,
Dave

PS - Very intuitive of you regarding your point about the possibility of one of these guns doing connective or osseous tissue damage to his hands if he did any kind of serious training with one. I don't think he realizes just how painful it can be to shoot one. The .454 Casull that I had the privilege to shoot some years ago left my shooting hand badly sprained. Took a couple of weeks to feel normal again. Maybe I should have stopped shooting it at 20 rounds, instead of 40!

[DoeNob]

Hands down the .500 S & W. Take a look at the ammo for the S & W versus the DE and you'll see why you want that particular weapon in that caliber. Vs. the 454 it has more power in just about every category. Until they make a bigger handgun, that's the best bear medicine on the market today.

Has he thought about pepper spray?

Ha ha ha ha ha, right. ;D

[1st cav sgt ret]

very good discussion mohawk,I reread your first post(cause I missed the part about concealability)I dont think any handgun would stop a freighttrain(bear)with teeth and claws that considers you as lunch,In my opnion a centermass hit wouldnt even cause the bear to flinch,you must break the charge by hitting the bone structure(headshots are out as its to hard to hit a bouncing target and the only tgt is the point of the nose which leads to the brain)the only targets are the shoulders(doesnt matter which but you must hit one or the other)in order to turn it(I wish alleninalaska would chime in here)center mass shots wont work because the shot doesnt present itsself till its on top of ya,and takes to long for it to expire,therefore you MUST have absolute confidence in your weapon, you must train(practice)as you intend to fight,and you MUST practice often,that said a 44mag 4in ported with hardcast 300graners would not be a bad choice,as for the other cals mentioned in my opnion they are more for primary hunting with someoneelse with a rifle for backup.And I wasnt aware that it wasnt legal to carry a rifle or shotgun while fishing in alaska(could someone clarify this)I wont make comment on the 500s/w as its to new and I dont have any experance with it(except to say a 335gr bullet at 1800fps would be difficult if not impossible to haul down out of recoil for a fast aimed second shot and forget a third)

[Stretch]

Why not a .30-06 or .45-70 or even .450 Marlin?

Only one shot with the Thompson's, which are available in these calibers, but that's all it'd take if ya hit'em...

Carry a hand-cannon... LOL

[Stretch]

Actually, I think I'd have to go with the S&W .500...

[Mohawk]

Guys,
Thanks for the feedback! 'Cause like I said, I was at a loss to give Dr. Rice (David) any kind of an authoritative answer. Fact of the matter is, I'd don't know what I'd do myself if I were the middle of the Alaskan backcountry just minding my business when all of the sudden an 1800-lb bear decided to express its concerns over my intruding on his/her territory and or eating from out of his/her stretch of some salmon-rich river . . . even if I did have a hand-cannon at the ready!!!

And Sarge, neither Dr. Rice (David) nor I considered that a bear committed to a given target (i.e. charging) doesn't expose it's thoracic area until its "on top of" that target! He only mentioned that he and his friend/colleague who accompanies him on these Alaskan adventures have been closer than comfort allows to clearly pissed-off Alaskan coastal bears at least once and went on to explain that the incident frightened them so terribly that they cut the trip short! Then he went on to tell me that after the recent, highly publicized story about the married couple who were bear experts being killed along coastal Alaska, he said he would not do another hiking/fishing trip there unless he had the tool(s) to "level the playing field" (that's was how he put it, at least).

My sister Kelly must have told him I knew alot about firearms (probably why he agreed to come to Mom & Dad's house for dinner on Thanksgiving), 'cause he was wantin' to know pretty badly what he could do to make his Alaskan hiking trips safer and/or less stressful. But I know big rifles, not big handguns. Nonetheless, I told him to go with a .454 Casull. It's the most accurate and most fearsome handgun I've ever fired! But even as I told David (Dr. Rice) this, I remembered how I had seen a documentary on dangerous bears some years ago, and during the program a case study was reviewed in which photos of a man armed with a .454 Casull were shown status-post his decapitation by an angry Grizzly . . . the .454 Casull handgun still clenched in his right hand . . . fully loaded . . . with the hammer pulled back!!!

Bob, you mentioned the reciprocity laws regading concealed handguns that many states have in place. I mentioned this to David and he just looked and me and said that in the areas where he and his buddy have traditionally hiked and camped, NO firearms are permitted. He went on to add that he and his buddy were constantly running into other hikers, campers, and fishermen who carried them nonetheless!!!

Regards,
Dave

PS - I surmise that Alaskan adventures are popular with Houston M.D.s by virture of the fact that I've talked to many of them who are constantly telling me and others stories about their trips there (I'm an RN myself).

[Bobcat]

Anyone that goes into brown bear country unarmed is an idiot.....especially fishing. I would rather be alive to explain why I had the gun.

I commend the Doc for wanting to protect himself.

Bob

[CoonDawg]

Dave, I posted this question on an Alaskan board and the answers I got back ( mind you some of these people live there and wouldn't open the door without a gun in hand ) 44 mag with hotly loaded flatpoint wadcutters about 300grs, 454 Casull, 41 mag. If he just wants 2 shots I'ld go with a derringer in 410 gauage , my own personal choice would be a Glock 20 (10mm) very hot loaded.

Something for him to think about is with a revolver he can put it right up against the animal and keep firing until empty 5 or 6 times now if he has to use one or more of those shots trying to freighten him away well you have less to fight with.

Depending on how much he wants to spend there are some up close and personal bear stopers.

[1st cav sgt ret]

mohawk check out www.bowenclassicarms.com the RD02 alpine,I would suggest dave contact hamelton bowen through his website and have this discussion,on a proper firearm for his use(they are supprisingly affordable once you get past the inital cost)

"No. RD02 ‘Alpine’ A handy companion for fishermen and hunters who require a simple, no-nonsense gun that is tough enough to handle heavy hunting loads that discourage bears and other pests. Available in any standard Redhawk caliber. Modifications include: action/trigger tune with hammer nose refitted for maximum firing pin protrusion, barrel cut to 4 inches, round-butt grip-frame and reshaped factory grip, bevel cylinder in the Colt black powder style"

[1st cav sgt ret]

thankx bobcat as I am computer challenged!!!aint that a purdy pistol

[Mohawk]

Sarge, Stretch, CD, NeSoDak, et. al.,
I plan on e-mailing Dave about all your suggestions! But after he sees the pic posted just above by Sarge, I think he's gonna thoroughly evaluate this prospect first. It looks like just the ticket and I'm gonna tell him so in the event he doesn't reflect being as impressed as I am. A .50 AE probably generates very near the energy of a .454 Casull. But this gun also has what strikes me as grip that is more conducive to management of the terrible recoil so characteristic of guns chambered for the subject class of cartridges! Of course, I don't think he'll fail to give the S&W .500 Mag a good look, too.

Best,
Dave

PS - Did any of you gents hear about that husband and wife pair that was killed along the upper Alaskan coast a couple of months back by the same bear? It was covered very briefly on the local news here in Houston the day after it happened. And then Jay Leno joked about it the same night on the Tonight Show, saying that these two were bear experts and had once boasted that they could never see themselves getting mauled or killed by the subject beasts. Man, I tell ya . . . that whole Titanic phenomenon is just too common for any of us to think like that about the dangers that surround us!