Woodrow
Full Member
Cypress, TX
Posts: 36
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Post by Woodrow on Nov 10, 2003 11:47:30 GMT -5
Poaching is a terrible thing. Now in this case, I wouldn't say it is terrible. Not knowing the whole story or any background info makes it hard to come to a judgement. If the guy has really pursued a lot of different avenues in trying to feed his family, then I can't blame him much, but I have a hard time believing that. There are too many hunting ranches out there killing a ton of deer. I feel that if he went around and asked for the meat, he would get it.
I think more should be done to use game to feed those in need. Hunters for the Hungry is a start, but more should be done. At my in-laws ranch they kill a ton of deer each year........they also give a ton away to locals. I don't know how most of the big hunting ranches do it, but if locals got active about it, there is a lot of meat to be had. Hogs too. I think there is a lot of meat that is either wasted or not taken (a hunter not shooting something b/c he doesn't have room for it) b/c the lack of places that take in the meat (for free, a lot of people are turned away by the $20 that H4H charges)...............but there are certainly mouths that can be fed from it. Every town should have some type of place that takes in meat for the needy. It would help hunters and the needy. To really manage a big ranch, a lot of deer need to be killed, but not enough do b/c people don't want to mess with it.........therefore it would help the hunters cause they could manage their land really good. I know I have drifted off the subject, but I think it is relative and could maybe prevent things like this happening.
That being said, I think most poachers are head hunters and should be punished as fully as the law will allow!
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Post by ICMCumin on Nov 10, 2003 20:36:19 GMT -5
This situational ethics stuff is a real slippery slope. IMO it comes down to - is it a crime, yes or no.
I feel for the guy, but there should be a legal way for him to feed the kids. Knowing that is easy for me to say...... I haven't been in his shoes so maybe I am missing something here..
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Post by varmint101 on Nov 10, 2003 21:44:20 GMT -5
The question can't be whether or not it is a crime. As legally defined by the law it is always a crime to "poach". IMO it would be better asked if this is a moral crime and that's always left up to the participant no matter what someone else thinks.
Regards,
Matt
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Post by GonHuntin on Nov 10, 2003 21:51:44 GMT -5
ICMCumin
You are absolutely correct....situational ethics is a very slippery slope and I have little respect for people who engage in the practice!
However, in the case of someone who truly has no other way to feed himself or his family......well, he doesn't have the luxury of considering whether something is ethical.....his first concern is survival!
I have never seen or heard of anyone in a situation that bad...........
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buzzsaw
Full Member
Richmond, TX
Posts: 82
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Post by buzzsaw on Nov 11, 2003 18:33:25 GMT -5
The Texas Penal Code does give options in a lot of ways. There are very few sections or charges that say shall arrest. Most say may arrest. Meaning that even if the offense is "on viewed", (commited as you watch) you can refer charges to the District Attorney's Office and obtain a warrant for arrest later. Law enforcement is not always as black and white as it should be. I wish it were that way. You make instant decisions that effects peoples lives for years to come. By the same token, you are not a Judge or jury. Common sense goes a long way if applied fairly. Which is probably the hardest part. I love the job some days and then some days I hate it.
So to my point. Techncaly it is a crime. Ethically it depends. Can this be applied fairly. I don't know. I am only a cop.
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Post by jdickey on Nov 11, 2003 19:15:22 GMT -5
:DIMO, if this guy in fact was truthful, you might give some lee way and some sympathy. Like it or not there are people who are truly surving on traditonal pioneer methods. However, if this guy was shooting deer from the road and with a .300 Weatherby with a Leuopold scope and a leather sling, with a box of Hornady bullets, he should be strung up by his JUEVOS.    |
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Post by BozoWise on Nov 12, 2003 16:20:40 GMT -5
Buzz I think most of the time I as a past officer had to let the court's decide. Because I was not the judge, more of a messenger.
I think everyone has great points on this topic. And it goes into every law in life. There are always excuses when people break the law. Yet there is always more then one side to each story.
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Post by Stretch on Nov 12, 2003 17:03:31 GMT -5
You know the old saying... Some things are better off left unsaid... But I'm gonna stick my foot in my mouth and take the chance of getting foot in mouth disease...  I've been unemployed for over 2 years now. I have applied for McDonalds, Krogers, Albertsons, Labor jobs, Temp jobs, Security jobs, well absolutely anything I could find (over 800 applications, literally) and I am STILL unemployed!!! There is NO work for some folks. Apparently I am one of those people!! It pisses me off (can I say that?) to hear people who've never been in the situation reign from high about what can and should be done to avoid the situation. Until you've walked a mile in my shoes.... If in fact this guy was trying to feed his family, and it sounds like he was, then you should be glad he didn't rob your wife or Mom for money to buy food. He did it as honest as he could, he shot deer. Personally, I'd be hunting hogs, there are more of them and hunts usually can be found free when causing damage. But I sure as heck wouldn't give a d**n about having my license if it meant going without electricity or even rent. My wife works and she is our only source of income at the moment. And has been for the time I've been without work. She makes about $10 an hour. I don't know how much money you guys are accustomed to bringing home, but $10 an hour isn't enough to care for a family of 5. I have 3 kids to feed, we get $200 a month food stamps and thats ALL we get!! I'm not lazy, I'm not uneducated or stupid or dumb. I was making $75,000 a year when I was laid off. We lost our house, our car and many many more things that we couldn't fit into the only size storage we could afford, which we are also about to lose. I sold guns, ammo, scopes, paintball equipment, fishing equipment lawn equipment, tools, you name it, I sold it!!! I HAD to!! I couldn't bring myself to get rid of some of my guns as there is simply too much sentimental value in them. Some from the very person that got me into hunting and left to me at his death. Worth very little on the market, but priceless to me. Accurate and powerful enough to bring down game. So does that make me an outlaw?? If it does, then by God I'll be the crookedest poachingest sumbit*h there is. As of right now, I haven't had to poach. Thank God for family and friends. But You know what? They can only help so much and only for so long. I owe a very large thanks to Wayne Buckley for helping me out. He let me sell the Loudmouth and is helping me get started by keeping my orders down. He risks his own butt to help mine!! He is a very true individual who has helped me when even some of my own family wouldn't, or couldn't. But it's a form of income for me. I work to sell the units, I didn't want handouts or sympathy, all I wanted was a freaking JOB. But try to explain to a 4 year old why Santa is passing her by this year. And then try to explain to the same kid when she asks if it was because she was "bad"? If you can do it, then you have NO heart!! Yup, you folks go right ahead and hang poachers or other truly needy people. Afterall, this is a "only the strong survive" country we live in, right? But remember what makes you strong, when your job is GONE and you have no money to put food on the table and become one of the weak just remember how you felt about poaching when you made your statement on the Texas Predator Posse... |
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Post by BozoWise on Nov 12, 2003 20:19:43 GMT -5
Stretch I read through the posts again and I think everyone here has said that poaching wasn't always bad if it was for food. I know I said that circumstance was the determining factor. I myself being in county law enforcement never had a "truely" needy poacher. They were all head hunters or just unlawful people.
I think you might have misunderstood the post. I think everyone here is for helping the people in need and against the headhunters not people trying to help thier family.
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Post by ICMCumin on Nov 12, 2003 20:26:06 GMT -5
Stretch: This is part of what I said. Knowing that is easy for me to say...... I haven't been in his shoes so maybe I am missing something here.. Thanks for letting me know what I was missing - which is sympathy. God bless. I was in a similar boat not long ago. BTW, do you live in the Houston area? |
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Post by Stretch on Nov 12, 2003 21:40:39 GMT -5
Bozowise... No sir, I don't feel I misunderstood the post or any of the responses. My response was to show, that there aren't always jobs out there and money can't always be made and government assistance is only so much. What really burns me is the folks who drive a new cadillac or new suburban and they run to the welfare line for their food stamps to take advantage of programs that were meant for folks who truly need the help. I see it ALL the time and it's wrong!! I drive a 1988 Ford Bronco. Since I've been unemployed it seems to need more repairs, as if it knows I can't afford to fix it. Right now, it needs a radiator, it's a plastic one and a seam busted. I repaired it with some JB Weld and it is still leaking, but not as bad. I can't afford to fix it like it should be and it overheats after a while. I have to stop and put water in it every day. Then last week the actuator (a rod on top of the steering column) which engages the starter from the key, broke. I have to get inside and turn the key on, then go under the hood and jump the silinoid to start it. Not so bad for me, but the wife has to use the truck more than I do. Not only is it embarrassing, but its very dangerous after getting gas and having to start the vehicle at the gas pumps. Sparks fly like a mig welder every time we connect the screw driver to the silinoid posts. I pray it doesn't cause a fire or explosion, but I can't afford the $200 to repair it. Then theres the small stuff that has broken and can't be replaced. Like the drivers seat has broken and is only attached to the floor board by one bolt. The passenger window and the back window won't roll up or down, the gears are stripped. The truck has right at 300,000 miles on it. She's tired and these things are expected to break. I just wished they could've done it when I had the money to fix them... I couldn't care less if someone is poaching for food if they need to feed their family. I think responses where guys are saying stuff like: "I agree poaching is against the law.Being unemployed for 2 weeks is not the right answer.Being an ex-police I agree with Bozo a crime is a crime." Or even your own response "Tough call, but from a LEO standpoint you can't bend the law to fit your needs. I still say NO WAY to poaching." And "Poaching is poaching and it is a crime." These are the ones I was recalling in my response. There are extenuating circumstances to some poaching. I know you don't have the ability to know when someone is lying about why they just shot that 12 point buck to feed their family. But he should've taken a doe or like I said earlier a hog. LOL I understand LEO's point of view. I was an Animal Control Officer for 15 yrs. I know these people lie every chance they get to try and get out of a ticket or jail time. I just think more discretion should be used sometimes. The law isn't always black and white. Does this give someone the right to poach? No, not in my opinion. But, like they say, it's only illegal if your caught. I'd take the chance if I had to. Should I get caught, I'd only hope I had an understanding officer and not some Barney Fife telling me a crimes a crime! Commit the crime do the time. Or someone who had a quota to meet and didn't care about the circumstances that drove me to break the law. My vehicle registration is due this month and I can't afford the liability insurance required by state law, so I can't get my registration. Do you think a police officer is going to care about my circumstances when he's writing out the ticket? Not likely... He'll probably have the attitude that a crime is a crime and I should pay for it. He doesn't have the time or need to care about my kids Christmas and I know it's not his fault that I am in this predicament. But I will do what I have to in order to survive or provide for my family... But do you think I could afford an attorney to get me out of the tickets or jail time? Would the courts care as they fined me for taking our precious deer out of season or without a hunting license? Not likely!! |
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Post by Stretch on Nov 12, 2003 21:44:55 GMT -5
ICMCummin... Thanks buddy, but I'm not looking for sympathy or handouts of any kind. I was only saying that not all poaching is poaching, at least not to me.  I could easily understand why someone would be driven to taking an animal illegally and I would never hold it against him. Edit: I'm in the Dallas area... But I have some kinfolk in the Houston area... |
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Post by BozoWise on Nov 12, 2003 22:32:19 GMT -5
I do have sympothy for your situation,even though you are not seeking it. My uncle went from Paramedic of the year in Austin to fired and then total unemployed because they found out that he had MS. He had had it for the 6 years he was employed but since it did not effect his work he did not make it public. They got ahold of some confidential records and found out and he had and he was fired that same day. All in less then 6 months after recieving paramedic of the year. He lost his wife due to all the hardship and he couldn't get a job to make enough to help out his 3 children. He too did everything it took to help out his children.
I think it is only human nature to do what it takes to survive. And to furthur explain my comment: "Tough call, but from a LEO standpoint you can't bend the law to fit your needs. I still say NO WAY to poaching."
You can't bend the law, this would lead to a cahotic society and I think you would agree. I am not referring just to poaching in anyway. Poaching is the act of taking game animals. I am not sure about the laws in TX, but in NM there are many non-game animals that can be taken year round. The hardest part about supporting the taking of game animals for food is you have to draw a line were the need would justify the means. And I myself do not have the right to draw that line. I have to leave that to the courts. Because I have no idea where I would draw it. Is it one day without food, 2 days? Is it ok if you have kids and a family? I'm not sure.
I still agree with you that if it was my family I would do whatever it took to survive, even if that did mean breaking the law, yet I would also be prepared to stand up to the punishment for breaking the law, just as you yourself are ready to do.
I think you would agree though that this is a very hard subject to make a "right" or "wrong" stand. What laws would it be ok to break and which ones would it not be? That is a question that everyone would have to make for themselves.
I myself and my family will have you in our prayers and I know you are not wanting handouts, but I would be more then happy to discuss some things with you outside the post as I am always more then welcome to help people in anyway I can; for I am a firm believe that God pays you back two fold for everything you give to others no matter how little. I am not offering a handout, but I am offering you my support. If you take it as a handout then I am sorry, I think of it more as a loan with the condition of you passing the helping hand on to someone else in need when you can. God be with your family and my heart felt condolenses are with you.
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Post by Stretch on Nov 12, 2003 23:40:47 GMT -5
BW... You obviously have a good heart. I appreciate the offer, but I wouldn't feel right about taking anything from you or anyone else. Just keep me in those prayers and maybe I'll be able to pull out of this before it's all over and done with... |
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Post by BozoWise on Nov 13, 2003 0:20:54 GMT -5
My offer will still be there in the future and as stated before, it is not a handout. You would be responsible for helping out someone else in the future.
So for now God bless.
Brian Wise
505-393-8124 You are more then welcome to call collect. Or BozoWise@hotmail.com I check it almost daily.
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