Ed Brown M702 action

[Mohawk]

Fellas,
Any of you possess first-hand knowledge of the specifics and/or pecularities of Ed Brown's Model 702 bolt action rifles, and most specifically, of the action on which these rifles are based? The item looks and sounds like a real winner (i.e. strong, reliable, and conducive to superior accuracy and super-fast handling).

Dave

[1st cav sgt ret]

www.edbrown.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/002570.1.474666278218517993 while it isnt first hand it's what I could find

[Mohawk]

Sarge,
You just go out of your way to help me out! I'm gonna have to serve as your observer/spotter on one of these posse hunts! Seriously!!!

From the above photo, the subject item appears exactly as I had hoped it would. That is to say that I think Mr. Brown et. al. have designed a turn-bolt rifle action that is what the late Don Allen of Dakota Arms designed his T-76 action to be -- but failed. I owned a rifle based on the Dakota Arms T-76, believing it to be the ultimate hybrid repeater of a turn-bolt design. It goes without saying that I was disappointed. Of course, that was before I realized that the Remington M700 design has an indispensable feature when it comes to building a super-accurate rifle: a bolt head in which the cartridge's case rim is completely encapsulated when the bolt is locked into the receiver. Ed Brown has copied this feature. Dakota Arms has not. Also, the Remington design is round and does not have an integral recoil lug, both of which lend themselves to superior stock to barreled action mating when a riflesmith goes to doing a bedding job. And Mr. Brown has obviously adhered to this line of thinking. But once again, Dakota Arms has not.

But the Remington design doesn't have everything! The extractor and safety mechanism features of the Winchester and/or Mauser designs are better than in the Remington, being positioned on the bolt shroud and on the rim of the bolt head, respectively. But Mr. Brown has copied these as well.

Finally, from the looks of the photo you've submitted, Ed Brown appears to be telling us the truth about the precision methods by which he renders his design; methods that I understand are similar to those by which Dakota Arms render their T-76.

I'm gonna have to get one! I just have to talk him into selling the action and magazine assembly by itself. And right now, he doesn't do this according to my riflesmith!

Thanks,
Dave

[BayouCityBoy]

Mohawk:

I'm curious as to why you were disappointed with your Dakota rifle. When Don Allen designed the Dakota action, controlled round feed was one of his priorities as no one was producing a true controlled round feed at the time. About the only option available at the time was the Pre-64 Winchester action for a good custom hunting rifle, and Don was trying to fill that market for which there was a significant demand. His design was modern but not a new approach by any means. Nor was he trying to design a target grade rifle.

Also curious about your responses indicating that the Dakota action is a failure in your opinion. It's a well known fact that the coned breach of a controlled round (Mauser style) rifle may not have the accuracy potential of a flat breeched rifle. However, for most hunting rifle applications, the difference is almost non-existant. In a target class rifle it may show up.

Don't misunderstand me, there's certainly nothing wrong with The Brown action, but an interesting action that has just been on the market the past few years is the HS Precision action. Have you looked at it? It has some unique features if you're looking for accuracy.

In addition, although you are probably not interested in purchasing one, are you aware that Dakota Arms also produces an action based on the round cylindrical receiver callled the Model 97? It still has the controlled round feed, but Don designed it as a cheaper to make alternative to his original model 76 action and to market to the folks who like the round receiver. - BCB

[Mohawk]

BCB,
You make some compelling points here, the most interesting of which is that Don wasn't trying to design an action around which the nation's riflesmiths could build super-accurate 'target' rifles. And I am quick to forget this fact. Indeed, he had strength and reliability in mind, so that when people needed to hit a game animal a second or even third time that it might not either make it over the next rise only to be lost to the hunter, or turn around and charge. But with many cartridges (e.g. .338 Lapua Magnum), I think his design failed even here. You see, often when I attempted quick cycling of my T-76 actioned rifle, the case rim of the cartridge being chambered from the magazine would essenitally miss being seated into the groove between the bolt face and extractor. I thought it was just my rifle at first. But then I met people at Shot Show 2001 who told me in confidence that their Dakota Arms rigs did the same! Also, I rebarreled the rifle twice in the two years I owned it (with a Hart and then a Krieger tube), but it never consistently printed better than about 0.6-0.7 MOA. I had to have at least 0.4-0.5 MOA accuracy. And finally, a number of riflesmiths (going back to Shot Show 2001) told me they hated the actions because they couldn't get a really solid fit between the stock and underbelly of the action by virtue of its semi-squared bottom and integral recoil lug. And they insisted that this was part of my accuracy problem! So I ultimately got rid of the rifle.

But ya know, what you've said gets me to thinking: Maybe I need to stick with Nesika and BAT actions if I'm not willing to trade a few tenths of a minute accuracy for fast handling, repeating virtues. After all, a man can't have his cake and eat it too!

Best,
Dave

PS - Right you are about the Model 97! I wanted one desperately. But I'm left-handed and Dakota Arms doesn't offer this action in a left-bolt, left-port option. As for the HS Precision action, it too, looks like a winner. But I prefer the Ed Brown action by virtue of the position of the safety.

[BayouCityBoy]

Mohawk:

Thanks for the reply. Wasn't trying to "rain on your party", but I did want to state Don's Allen's purpose was in developing a good hunting rifle (modern manufacturing processes, etc. around a well-liked design) and nothing else. The accuracy you saw is pretty typical of most good rifles of that type. For true accuracy folks, the 76 action would not be a good choice. Brown's action would most likely give you a much beter chance of getting a tack driver.

The problems you saw with the controlled feeding at rapid cycling rate is a fault of most of those types of actions. Too much is happening too fast for it to all work smoothly all the time. That is why most extractors (Winchester, etc.) are shaped on the front edge to "push feed" a round that is not captured out of the magazine. This was even recognized in Peter Paul Mauser's development of the 98 action and why the German military stressed strict cycling procedures for their troops and rifles. They did not have the "push feed" capability.

In addition, the flat bedding surface is tough to get right, even with bedding compound. Remington got that resolved in what they did with the cylindrical action with lots more bedding surface.

I too shoot left handed, but learned on a right handed 22 Savage bolt gun long ago. I still shoot right handed bolt guns - reaching over became second nature. I tried a left handed action once and it drove me crazy.

I've enjoyed cyber chatting with you. What part of Houston do you live in? I live in Cypress (NW - Jones Rd./Grant Rd. area) - BCB

[Mohawk]

BCB,
I'm in Meyerland near the junction of Loop 610 and N./S. Braeswood.

I'm planning on heading over to American Shooting Centers either tomorrow or on Sat. morning. Join me if you can . . . phone # is 713-728-0542.

Dave

[BayouCityBoy]

Mohawk:

I really appreciate the offer and will hang onto the phone number and get back with you.

I have a couple of things going tomorrow and Saturday with my better half or I would take you up on the invite. Gotta' keep the wife happy so she overlooks the "occasional" gun purchase. Thanks much - BCB

[Mohawk]

BCB,
Here it is Sat. night and I never got out to the range, so ya didn't miss anything. Oh well. Just let me hear from ya when you wanna train. I'm always going out there by myself and it sucks since a man is much more limited in what he can do by himself. There are certain drills/exercises that I'd like to start doing, for instance, on the longer courses that I can't do by myself (i.e. we could do these drills if only we would serve as spotter for one another). It would allow us to reach out further and further for those instances where a nice game specimen comes into full view, but is alot farther out than the distances at which most hunters feel comfortable trying for them.

Dave