Barrel Breakin

[BayouCityBoy]

Gonhuntin:

Excellent thoughts and comments on the subject - IMHO ;D- Take Care - BCB

[BozoWise]

BCB,

It would be fairly easy in my eyes for them to mark chambers end when tooling. Just like Clereke and other custom barrel makers do, yet they don't.



Oh and to everyones amazement or common knowledge. Clerke claims the best out of the box rifle barrel is Savage handsdown.

Now I do have to say again "barrel" not complete rifle.

[BayouCityBoy]

Bozowise:

I agree that marking the barrels would be an easy thing, but then they would probably have to raise the price of a factory rifle by $75 for the extra work - LOL

I am not a fan of the Savage action - IMHO they are butt-ugly, but the word accurate and Savage seem to appear a lot in the same sentence. I may have to purchase one and play with it.

Maybe my fear issue is that with Savage's barrel system I would be buying all kinds of new barrels in different exotic calibers and creating myself a whole new world of problems - at least in my wife's eyes!!! - A big list of 20 caliber options come to mind!!

Take Care - ;D - BCB

[texasshooter]

GH,
your comment on the bore scope is very accurate. I have seen great shooting rifles that after looking through a bore scope they wouldn't shoot any more. I firmly believe that shooting is a "mental" sport. Everyone has a "favorite" rifle that they can't miss with. It reminds me of a story that I heard not too long back about a guy that showed up at Whittington Center in Raton, NM with tracer ammo for his .308. Everyone was doing just fine with the wind. When he started shooting his tracer ammo at 1000yds it looked like a snake making it's way to the target. The wind was swirling, but no one really knew it. After they all saw the tracers they couldn't hit the target!

I have several rifles that I have gone through the "proper break in procedure" and several that I have not. I can honestly say that I can not tell the difference in accuracy or ease of cleaing between the two. I have only one "custom" barrel and that is on a .243 AI and it's a Hart Match barrel which did receive the proper break in cuz my father-in-law did it for me As far as I am concerned the verdict is still out. I did read an article in Precision Shooting that was an interview with Speedy Gonzales, a custom rifle manufacturer here in Texas, and he said that it's a waste of time and barrel life.

So who is going to start the "Moly or not to Moly" thread? hehehehe

[1st cav sgt ret]

from some of my old army buds that are in the gulf,the latest tech manual on the m-4 sez at the end of your patrol take an air hose and blow the sand out of the action and barrel only,they arent useing any grease or clp(I guess cause it gums the action up worse)and are fireing the m-4s dry

[BozoWise]

I can second that I have a good friend that is a Army ranger and they stripped down all their wepons and run them dry over in the dunes. Some of them are using powder graphite in the actions though.

[Bennie]

The oil holds the sand is the reason they don't use it. When I was stationed in Alaska many years ago we did not place but a very thin coat of oil on our weapons (sometimes) because in the extreme cold it would gum up. The same with pdoggin in west Texas and New Mexico, keep a very light coat on the bolt because of the blowing sand.

[1st cav sgt ret]

I was just thinking of all the hours~n~hours I spent completely field stripping and cleaning that heavy a$$ ma-duce,whenever we would get new?? barrel ti was nothing to linkup 500 or 1000 rounds and go to bustin caps,however my m-16 I cleaned meticously

[ninehorses]

My turn,

It seems to me that this barrel break- in, is a waste of time. All those extra passes of the cleaning rod, brush, and patch can't help but wear on the lands and crown. Even if you use a bore guide and a coated rod. The only burs that could be in a barrel are those left by the chambering reemer at the front of the throat. In my experience, the best barrel break-in is to just shoot it. Then clean it when the groups start to open up, or when your done for the day. Or out of bullets!

Make sure it's clean to start with, and don't worry about how a factory rifle shoots untill its had a hundred rounds through it.

I've seen too many rifles that are shooters that were never broken-in, except by lots of bullets.

[varmithunter]

This has to be the most beat on subject in shooting. Hart says this. Shilen says this. Lija this, And on, And on.

After 35 years as a machinist I say this. It is my barrel, And my time. I am going to break it in. Will not argue the point with anyone else. Because it is there barrel, And there time.

Ronnie.

[Mohawk]

Gents,
I'm a devoted Krieger Barrels client (seein' as how the most accurate rifles I've ever owned or even seen shoot all have Kriegers on 'em) and those boys have told me in no uncertain terms that breakin' in a new barrel by painstakingly cleaning after every shot for the first 10-20 rounds or more is in no way going to make a barrel shoot any better than if ya just went hog wild with it and cleaned after every box of rounds (20) from the get-go. At least, at first it won't. They've explained to me that breaking in a barrel with the clean-after-every-round for the first 15-25 rounds or until you stop seeing lots of blue in your patches is only to ensure that the burrs on the throat get polished away before tons of copper that becomes virtually indelible can build up therein. Then, later on in the life of the barrel, the thing not only requires less maintenance, but will shoot a wider variety of bullet types well, and it will be more forgiving with handloads that are super-hot, super-long (i.e. seated close to or into the lands), or both.

Best,
Dave

[NESoDak]

I spoke to an older gentleman about this subject some years ago. He told me about "the old days" and how they would season the barrels of new rifles by shooting 50 rounds of cast lead bullets thru the barrel before switching to jacketed bullets. This he said was thought to fill in the pores of the barrel and make them shoot cleaner with jacketed bullets. We all know that this is a nutty thing to do, but if you were to tell a new shooter about the process he would just as likely find some logic in it. Especially if that shooter were using something like a 30-30 or similar lead friendly round.

Just something I thought was interesting and you never know, the idea may raise its head again. It doesn't sound very dissimilar to the firelapping idea.

[Jeff in TX]

I’ve spent the last few months trying to get a better understanding of what a barrel break-in process is and how to properly clean a rifle. What to do and what not to do.

I’ve spent a lot of time on this board, the BR board and other shooting boards listening to members and what works for them. Conclusion, what works for some, doesn’t work for others. Being an engineer in the telecommunications field, when it’s broke or you don’t understand something you go back to manufactures specs and schematics. So that’s kinda what I did on this subject.

I’ve talked with 4 metallurgist and 3 barrel manufactures (Rock Creek, Hart and Shilen), on the subject. From a scientific point of view, they all said and agreed to pretty much the same thing.

First, barrel break-in processes keep them in business. This shoot and clean, shoot and clean every round or few rounds break-in process only damages your brand new match barrel. Think of a car engine for a moment. Why do we use oil in the engine? To prevent metal-to-metal contact and reduce friction between two metal surfaces. Your barrel is no different from the engine.
Mike Rock at Rock Creek barrels gave me the most detailed explanations on barrels and ballistics. Mike has his degree in metallurgy; he was also the chief ballistics engineer for the Army for many years at the Aberdeen Proving grounds. Stan Rivenbark was one of the top ballistic engineers for Raytheon before he retired in the 70’s and also has a degree in metallurgy. I also talked with two local metallurgists here in North TX. I confirmed my findings with each person to see if they agreed or disagreed. Conclusion, they all agreed with each other’s assessments.

When Mike worked at Aberdeen proving grounds, the Army used high speed bore videos with mirrors, thermal imaging and computers to analyze any and everything that happens when the firing pin hits the primer and the round goes off. When the primer ignites there is enough pressure to move the bullet forward into the lands. The bullet then stops. As the primer ignites the powder, more pressure builds moving the bullet forward where it can stop again. Once there is enough pressure from the round going off, the bullet is moved down out the barrel. All of this happens in nanoseconds (billionths of a second). Your bullet starts and stops at least twice and sometimes three times before it leaves the barrel. This is fact.

If you clean every round or every few rounds during your barrel break-in process or clean your rifle so well after shooting that you take it down to the bare metal, you’ve created a metal-to-metal contact surface for the next time you shoot the gun. So what’s the problem with this you ask? Just like your car engine, metal-to-metal contact will sheer away layers of metal from each surface. So if your bullet is starting and stopping two or three times as it leaves the barrel, that’s two or three places for metal-to-metal contact to happen as well as the rest of your bore. The use of JB’s and Flitz can and will take you down to metal-to-metal contact. For all intents and purposes, JB’s and Flitz are not the most ideal products for cleaning your rifle.

According to Mike Rock and the other barrel manufactures agreed, all you need to avoid this metal-to-metal contact is a good burnish in the barrel. Shilen, Hart and Rock Creek will all void your barrel warranty if you shoot moly bullets and for good reason. This is not to say that moly is necessarily bad for a barrel, but it is when applied to bullets. There is no way possible to coat a bore with moly bullets. The bullet contact surface in the barrel is only so big. But when your round goes off, moly comes off the contact surface of the bullet in the throat area of the rifle and is bonded to the barrel do to the excessive heat and pressure. Were not talking coated or adhered to, we’re talking bonded, d**n near permanent. With this, some of the jacket coating comes off the bullet. Follow this up with another round and you’ve now embedded the copper jacket between layers of bonded moly. This is the beginning of the black moly ring, which ruins countless barrels and is so hard; it can hardly be scraped off with a screwdrivers corner edge. This is what happened to a new Shilen SS select match barrel I had to have replaced with less than 400 rounds through it. I can’t talk for Fastex as I don’t or none of the folks I talked to knew enough about the product to comment on it.
When I talked to Mike about my new barrel and the barrel break-in process, this is what he had to say. He first hand laps each barrel with a lead lap. He then uses two products from Sentry Solutions, a product called Smooth Coat, which is an alcohol and moly based product. He applies wet patches of Smooth Coats until the bore is good and saturated and lets it sit until the alcohol evaporates. The barrel now has loose moly in it. Next he uses a product called BP-2000, which is a very fine moly powder. Applied to a patch wrapped around a bore brush, he makes a hundred passes or so through the barrel very rapidly before having to rest. He repeats this process with fresh patches containing the moly powder a few more times. What he is doing is burnishing the barrel surface with moly and filling in any fine micro lines left by the hand lapping. He then uses a couple of clean patches to knock out any remaining moly left in the bore.

With the barrel burnished with moly, this will prevent any metal-to-metal contact during the barrel break in process. My instructions for barrel break-in were quite simple. Shoot 20 rounds (non-moly bullets) with no cleaning, as this will further burnish the barrel. Done! Now shoot and clean using your regular regiment of cleaning and if you have to use JB’s or flitz type products, go very easy with them, or better yet avoid them. Never clean down to bare metal
He said most of the cleaning products do a great job, don’t be afraid to use a brush and go easy on the ammonia-based products for removing copper fouling. Basically don’t let the ammonia-based products remain in the barrel for long lengths of time.

Well that’s the long a skinny from the scientific point of view on the subject. If you're ever in doubt about the real condition of your barrel, take it someone who has a bore scope and even better if someone has a bore scope that can magnify the view. You may be surprised at what is really going on in your barrel.

I'm sure this will spark a debate here and there, but that's good thing. The more information we have, the better off we'll be.

[Bobcat]

.......different strokes.

Wecome to the Posse, Jeff!

Bob

[BozoWise]

Great first post Jeff. Thanks for the valued input.